The Ice Warriors episode 6 discussion:
K: Alright, who wants to sssssstart?
Sp: Surrender or die! I mean, trust us. That’s pretty much the only sour note. This episode was great.
K: Nexxxxxt?
P: Very little surprise me in this episode. Not that I foresaw it, but I saw the pieces already. Except maybe perhaps that they surrendered so easily.
H: The scientists or the Ice Warriors?
P: Scientists.
H: To be fair, the Ice Warriors had a gun that destroyed half their building before their surrendered.
Sp: Yeah, that chandelier totally surrendered.
H: The chandelier itself was a little silly in a phantom of the opera kind of way. But I liked the call back to the idea that everything is in re-purposed buildings. Remember that Penley and Storr were hanging out in a museum. Apparently the base is also repurposed building from the wood paneling and the chandelier. Which I thought was just a cool idea.
K: I recall from the first episode of the story Victoria saying that the base looked a lot like her house. In fact, I initially thought it WAS the house far into the future. For just a second, at least.
H: Didn’t Maxtible’s house get blowed up real good? I can’t remember.
Sp: I was too distracted by the house doing the Star Trek lean to the left thing and the cast not, to notice the wood paneling repurpose stuff.
K: I couldn’t get over the spinny spinny death scene of the Ice Warriors. It was making me dizzy.
Sp: But to counter that, the effect for the Ice Warriors weapon was really cool. The twisty spirally thing just really surprised me for what you could do with effects in that era of TV. It came out of left field and I really liked it.
H: And I love the personal weapon effect for the Ice Warriors, the sonic gun that squeezes the picture.
Sp: That’s what I was talking about. Not the big gun, but that one.
H: That was so wild. That was cool.
R: At least that gave dramatic Hobbit a dramatic death.
<Discussion of dramatic rodent You Tube meme. To the point where someone actually plays it.>
K: So, moving on.
<plays it again>
K: No, seriously, moving on.
R: No, seriously, that was the whiniest Hobbit I’ve ever seen.
K: I loved that scene. I’ve wanted to do that so many times at work. Just scream at my boss when I was getting sick of things.
Sp: Was he prominent last episode?
H: No.
Sp: Okay, good. That dude came out of nowhere!
P: Out of right field.
<dramatic meme video is played yet again… really?>
R: Rocket sound!
H: I liked it, because it pretty much got us to the meat of the philosophical conflict in the story and brought it to a head.
R: I thought they could have made the delicate philosophical point that you’re talking about without a shrieking Hobbit.
H: He wasn’t that short. But seriously, they needed someone in their own group to point it out and they’d already knocked out Penley and Jamie. And they needed Penley to turn up later to resolve the conflict.
P: They needed a red shirt in this episode to cover it.
H: But it meant that everyone knew that the Ice Warriors meant business.
K: They could have given Jamie something to do. Did he even have a line?
H: He did at the end.
R: The only thing I remember him doing was licking his lips once.
H: He asked the Doctor some questions in the scene when he and Penley were in the main room and they were powering up the ionizer.
K: Why did the Doctor send Victoria away to the TARDIS?
A: He wasn’t sure that they weren’t going to be destroyed.
H: He told her to take Jamie with her. Apparently Jamie ignored her. But Victoria went to the TARDIS and would have been perfectly safe.
K: Stuck. But safe.
H: Speaking of Victoria, it looked for part of the episode like she stone cold killed a guy. She through the stuff in the Ice Warriors face and he fell. It turns out that he was only knocked out, but we didn’t know that until he started to come through when his buddies returned to the ship.
Sp: Victoria also did a really good job translating the Doctor’s actions to the audience without it explaining the obvious or her just sounding simple. It was just good dialog.
H: Not so much exposition as more naturalistic. Sort of.
K: I thought it was a good technobabble translation. Better than the later technobabble, which was just technobabble.
H: So, logically, to my mind, and please remember I majored in the Social Sciences, what the Doctor described regarding sound waves and how a sound gun might work made a certain amount of sense. Was it entirely nonsense?
P: Sympathetic vibrations?
M: It was entirely non-sense.
R: It wasn’t entirely nonsense.
K: I agree. Sound waves do move better in liquid. And the helmet would, in theory, cause sound waves already in the helmet to be louder. But sending a sound wave a quarter mile away to a base and having it go through walls and stuff. And it hurt the humans more than the Ice Warriors to boot.
H: Well, the Doctor did say that he wasn’t sure. What basically the Doctor says is that, as Victoria also describes, like a singer shattering a glass, certain frequencies can cause destruction.
M: But that is partly the way the glass is shaped. Because it’s a circle the waves impact with each other and vibrate and shatters. Wine glasses are particularly susceptible to that happening to them.
H: Huh… Well, that’s disappointing.
M: It’s a common trope in Scifi. The Klingons use sonic disruptors too.
<Discussion of sonic stuff>
P: The idea is to find the natural frequency of the object and then produce a sound wave that sustains that frequency. The problem is that most objects are too complex to have just one frequency.
M: And they’re not fragile enough to resonate enough to break.
P: It would work on a crystal.
H: So basically it was good enough technobabble that it logically convinced me, but it was not in any way accurate.
P: There was enough half-truth in it to be believable.
H: Good, I learned something. Doctor Who is educational… sort of.
Sp: I actually had a larger problem with the Ice Warriors have more fluid in their bodies than humans do.
P: No bathroom nearby.
H: <laughs> They were in the ice for a LONG time.
P: So, I think the reason why the sonic gun doesn’t work in our mind is because we associate sound as spreading out like a laser. So it can’t travel great distances because it diffuses – inverse square law – that says if you turn a geek upside down he will make a lot of noise.
M: You really let him get that pun in.
K: Was typing too fast to notice.
Sp: So, character consistency note – I liked that the “physical coward” screamed the loudest when the sonic weapon was aimed at the base. The flunkies just took it. The Ice Warriors just kind of hissed and clattered…
K: Except the leader, who banged his hands against the side of his head like a gorilla.
Sp: But Clent screamed like the proverbial little girl.
H: I think Clent was a fantastic character from beginning to end. The character was consistent, was well developed. He nearly went crazy because of the contradictions that were forced on him by the events of the story.
Sp: Just like the computer did.
H: I think the acting was fantastic. The actor did a fantastic job.
Sp: I think Clent was a fantastic character from middle to end. He was really annoying and not well formed to me, anyway, at the start. But they used him well story wise.
K: You missed three episodes.
H: No, he watched one over Skype.
K: As I said, he missed three episodes.
Sp: Look, maybe my story arc is a little bit different than y’alls story arc. But it was an arc to me!
A: I made a meme. <shows picture of Clent with the caption “Let’s check Wikipedia”>
Everyone: <laughs>
H: So, let’s talk about the central philosophical idea behind this story, shall we?
P: Global cooling?
H: No.
Sp: Computers run our lives?
H: The idea being…
P: There aren’t enough S’s in our language?
H: No. <laugh> Spoo is a lot closer. The argument between the ability of the human mind and reliance on computers to a great extent. It’s ultimately an argument that the computers seem to have won…
P: But not to the extent of the science fiction writers of the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s.
H: Oh, no no no no. Skynet is still not online.
P: So you think.
K: And a room full of mostly software testers who will tell you that computers are in no way infallible.
M: They are completely infallible. They will do exactly what fallible people will tell them to do.
P: You can’t make something fool proof. As soon as you do, someone will invent a better fool.
H: But certainly it was, and still is with everybody talking about the singularity, still a significant question.
K: It’s stupid to me, because computers are only as smart as their programmers, so they’re really only relying on the smartness of the programmer, not the computer, so that’s just stupid. Sneh.
Sp: Honestly the philosophical debate there didn’t really do much for me, because the plot was on enough rails by that point that the argument was going to play itself out just in time for them to go with what the spunky human is trying to do so that the base can be saved.
K: The risk verses safe thing was predictable.
H: I still think that the argument between man and machine control is both very important for this time, and for Doctor Who in general. I also still think – for non-computer scientists – it still has resonance today.
Sp: <Monty Python voice> “Would that be a harmonic resonance that disrupts the…”
H: Yes, it will.
K: Okay, so final thoughts?
Sp: <sings clock song> Final thoughts now… final thoughts now… go… go… go…
Cz: Ssssssssss…
H: Fair enough.
A: We didn’t talk about that scene where the Doctor and Victoria we sabotaging the gun. I enjoyed that scene a lot, just watching those two characters together. And I enjoyed the story as a whole, I think mainly because of the characters. Clent was really good. I liked Penley also.
P: Usually, when the actions of the Doctor causes someone to die, we also stand up and go, oh no! And this time, no one gave a darn when the end result was to kill.
A: It was kind of horrifying, because they didn’t die instantaneously. It was painful.
H: To be fair, it wasn’t the Doctor who did it, it was Penley. It was entirely Penley’s choice. The Doctor didn’t stop him, but the Doctor didn’t do it. He let the humans make the choice.
K: Honestly there wasn’t much of a choice to make.
H: And of course Troughton has a history of doing this type of thing to Cybermen…
K: Monsters all the time?
H: Yes.
Sp: <weak-ass attempt at Troughton voice> “Yes, Mr. Monster, you’ve been quite evil, but now it’s time for you to go.”
M: Of course the humans end up the most dominant race in the galaxy. The Doctor is killing off everything else.
MS: It was awesome.
H: Come on, you seemed to like it more than that.
MS: No.
H & K: <in stereo> Okay.
Sp: The Ice Warriors have a lot of junk in the trunk.
P: That’s the water.
R: I’ve been saying, reptile jodhpurs.
H: Fiberglass costumes.
R: Emphasis on the ass. Also, what was up with the varying sizes of head on them..
H: Different Ice Warriors.
R: They were all wearing helmets, but some of them were like “Mom says I can’t go swimming.”
H: Clearly to me, especially since the ones with the big helmets didn’t have speaking roles – there are two reasons, and in story one and and out of story one. The out of story one is they didn’t have to build the face with the movable jaw and all that stuff.
K: That doesn’t explain why the heads were twice as big though – just why the mouths looked different.
H: Getting to that – with my in story guess. My in story guess is that the different helmets denoted different rank.
K: Mooks and guys who talk.
H: Exactly. And that design actually gets carried to a further extent when the Ice Warriors appear in the Pertwee years, but that is outside of the scope of the project.
R: Yeah, you go ahead and make up your little logistical… actually that makes pretty good sense.
Sp: My turn again? I liked the computer making its grand Shakespearian exit. Basically like what’s her name pretty much – dives across the stage with a grave stone in her hand…
H: Ophelia? She has rosemary in her hand and she dies off stage.
Sp: Anyway, it was grand and glorious, and totally worth it A) for the spinning computer trope, to denote dying computer, and B) for the nice glassy eyed look of “now what do we do” from everyone else in the room except for Penley.
K: I loved the scene when it pans across the station staff as they wait for…
H: For the ship to explode.
K: Well, as they wait.
Sp: Also, trivia for… well this is probably just for Historian and Ketina… so the Doctor and company make a polite and quiet exit stage right when everything seems to be okay now. It’s unusual to me that we don’t get a little coda of the Doctor and companions being all smug. They just quietly “hello, I must being going.” So, how many times do the Doctor and company just bugger off without another word once the main problem is resolved.
H: It’s happened before in the project.
Sp: I wasn’t looking for an exact number, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you had one.
K: Total stories from 63 to 89? About 35% maybe?
H: I wouldn’t go that high.
P: Let’s just check Wikipedia.
K: It does happen a lot.
Sp: It just seemed unusual to me.
<brief discussion of Clent’s limp>
Sp: So, the epilogue that we’re never going to get to see: what’s going to happen with all of the ice now that Ice Station Zero got knocked out and doesn’t have it’s computer and stuff.
H: They still have the ionizer. That’s how they melted the ice.
P: What about all of the friggen water when they melt the ice. Flash flood!
H: Hush!
Sp: See, see. Consequences. He never goes back to check on these people.
R: Yeah, the few times he does go back and checks on them it doesn’t go well.
H: There are a few that leap to mind, but the only one in the scope of the project is The Ark.
Sp: So yeah, from the way that you guys described it, I missed the exact right episodes and still got the meat of the story. Go me.
<discussion of episode padding and agreement that at least three of us felt that it was padded a bit, while the others disagreed.>
R: So, apparently Ice Warriors hiss when they’re laughing,
P: Ss-ss-ss-ss-ss
R: And they hiss when they’re angry…
P: Ssssss…
R: And they hiss when they’re upset…
H: Kinda sounds like angry, really.
P: Um… shshshshhh
R: Do they have any other emotional modalities?
H: Apparently not.
P: Maybe when they let one go? <squeak of launching balloon. Or something else…>
H: I guess we’re down to the limitations of the ability to… world build?
M: Well, to be fair we didn’t get to see the Ice Warriors watching a hockey game, or having a pleasant family dinner…
R: I’m just saying it must be the easiest language in the world to translating idiomatically.
M: Or the hardest!
<delayed dramatic rodent meme>
Sp: It’s one of those annoying tonal languages, isn’t it? One sound means nine things.
R: As far as the story as a whole, there were bits of it that had really, really good pacing, and I enjoyed those a lot. I did think that it dragged in a couple of places in the beginning, and I really think there has to be a more subtle dramatic device than a shrieking Hobbit.
K: Let’s see, everyone pretty much covered my thoughts for this episode. As a whole story, I agree with Ronelyn that there were lots of good bits, but also quite a few slow bits. I think it could easily have been a five parter instead of a six parter without losing anything significant. I really liked both Penley (with the exception of his horrible beard) and Clent and Clent’s assistant’s hat thing. And her outfit.
H: All the outfits were awesome.
K: But I was disappointed that Jamie did so little. I adore Jamie and he needs more to do in stories like this. And weanied out Victoria a little too much for me. And if they end up on an ice planet next week I’m going to be very upset.
P: So stealing the Historian’s thunder, Debra Watling was unable to complete the recording of the final episode, which is why she took off to the TARDIS.
H: How did he know that folks?
P: Because I was there?
H: He checked Wikipedia!
K: All you, Historian.
H: I liked this story a lot more than I remember liking it the first time I saw it. I thought the characters were fantastic. Some of the best character development we’ve seen in a long time. The Ice Warriors were really cool and a credible threat. The regulars were good, for what they were given. Certainly Troughton and Deb Watling did an excellent job. It was just very good Doctor Who. I remember not being so much of a fan of the next story, and I’m hoping that, like this one, I will like it a lot better too.
K: As long as it’s not on an ice planet!
H: I will neither confirm nor deny.
