The Underwater Menace episode 1 discussion:
Special Guests this week: JJB (JenJenBoo) and her husband Mg (research is needed to recall what that stands for). They were visiting from out of town.
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K: Under the sea doo doo dodo under the sea…
H: Watch our, or I’ll feed you to my pet octopus.
R: That’s just my little Octopussy..,
P: So now I understand where they got the plot for James Bond’s…
R: Everything?
P: Octopussy.
Sc: The Spy Who Loved Me is the one with the underwater city.
H: When was that movie?
Sc: Roger Moore. Well after this episode. But Thunderball would have been 64 or 65 and that had sharks in tanks.
H: It was nice that the re constructors could find the proper stock footage that was used in the show?
JJB: What did the mermaids swimming footage come from?
H: That was footage moved from episode 3.
K: And the parts with Polly at the end of the episode? That’s not from the start of episode 2?
H: Nope. More Australian censor clips.
R: I can see why Doctor Zarkoff needed somebody with a sense of humor.
M & JJB: FLASH! AHAHA!
H: Zarkoff Flash Gordon. Zaroff Underwater Menace. Anyway, I’ll say something positive about this story so far; excellent use of location shooting. I thought that, from what we could tell of the beach, it must have been really cool and a well scouted location. With the caves and everything, very nicely used.
P: Yeah, about that, that’s got to be a record for getting capture.
H: Surprisingly no.
K: Nope.
H: Keys of Marinus was almost immediately.
M: Polly finding the bracelet was a great allusion back to Barbara finding the Aztec jewelry. Then the Doctor commented on it be Aztec but fake, of course.
JJB: There have been a lot of themes of finding Atlantis, but was this a common theme in the 60’s? Was this a mind shattering or breath taking thing for Doctor Who to be doing?
H: I guess it was in the popular mind set, but I don’t think there was anything specific to Atlantis at that point. I wouldn’t say it was anything mind shattering though.
Mg: Zaroff, Russian? There was a statement about the East and West blaming each other. It think it was relevant to the cold war, but in what way? Was this a previous character?
H: Oh no.
M: Just purely by coincidence the Doctor knew about Zaroff and all that, and was able to save them and all that. And that was a bit much, wasn’t it.
K: Definitely.
JJB: What was it about the whole ambrosia being spiders from the sea?
H: Plankton.
JJB: But spiders and stuff? Disgusting.
K: Well, The Doctor thought it tasted good.
H: It was how he recognized that it was Zaroff. He made something that tasted awesome out of distasteful stuff specifically from the sea. So as a result, and given the time period, the Doctor knew it was him.
K: And they knew they were on earth because of the bracelet.
H: Plus his calculations on the beach and all that stuff.
M: And his time watch.
H: Or something.
P: Every watch is a time watch.
M: Good point. Every functioning one, anyway.
R: I have another positive comment. The music in the temple seemed… oddly worked. I was trying to decide if it was really goofy… but it had mean. It really kind of worked.
M: I also enjoyed the brief Hawkwind concert.
H: Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome Dudley Simpson. A composer hear off and on for much of the 60’s and 70’s Doctor Who, as well as the music for Blake’s 7.
P: So, on a practical scene, salinity would be a problem.
M: Are you talked about the food now?
P: Yeah, their food and drink. And second of all, I thought it interesting that it referred to the bends with its original name, Caisson’s disease. Which was named because the people coming up from the elevator from digging the caissons for the Golden Gate bridge. They used to use stairs, but that was the first time they used an elevator for going that deep under the water.
<further discussion of the bends. Google it if you care.>
P: So my point, is that original name has fallen out of use. Now it’s just called the bends.
K: Not unusually for the Doctor to use an archaic-ism like that.
H: Speaking of the Doctor, how about that note signed “Dr. W.” This is not the first time that the show as obliquely, in the 60’s, that the show has referred to him as Doctor Who.
R: So now that we’re done talking about the good parts of this episode…
JJB: I liked her shirt. Polly’s.
Mg: While it was very convenient that the Doctor was able to rescue them, I was surprised at the end. Suddenly they show this entire culture that working. It got really interesting turning people into fish, harvesting resources and all that.
P: So we’re moving into utopian society type of story.
H: Doctor Who has done stories with Utopian societies before, and every time there’s something horrible about it.
M: This is an isolated society, but not a utopian.
JJB: Not if they’re sacrificing people to sharks.
Mg: It’s funny, usually Atlantis is typically shown as high technology, but in this case all the high tech is the result of Zaroff. And the Atlantians themselves are sort of these primitive savages.
M: Instead of the Bermuda Triangle 1970’s versions.
R: Anyway. How many other people almost laughed out loud when the High Priest came out with a fish on a stick.
<generally agreement. Barnes and Barnes “Fish Heads” is sung>
R: My immediate thought was “Wow, this is Finding Nemo off-off-off Broadway.” And then, not only that, somebody in the episode, actually says “Life is very beautiful under the sea.”
K: Thus my opening line.
H: If you think that line is great, you have no idea what is coming.
R: It was just kind of spooky.
H: It’s really hard not to bust out with the LINE that everyone quotes from this story. There’s one line… you’ll know it when you hear it.
E: This is something to look forward to.
H: This is not a story that is well thought of, but there’s been a lot of talk by people who have seen the newly recovered second episode, and then seeing the third again, gives people pause to reassess the full story. It apparently works much better with moving pictures than with just stills and sound track.
Mg: What fascinates me, here we’re looking at this view of the past. Makes you wonder what’s happening now that will be seen 30 years from now that they’ll see. They’ll be reconstructing Twitter or something. We think it’s garbage now, but in the future you’ll never know.
P: In anthropology garbage dumps are the absolute treasure trove of information.
H: So, final thoughts?
P: I saw no to final thought, and here’s why. The sets, what we could see of them, were amazing. Consider the cost of a curved piece of glass, they must of borrowed that from a different set. Two, they did a wet dry shoot…
H: They didn’t do a wet dry shoot. It the original it was wire work filmed in a film studio, not someone in another work. But there is some “wet” set work in a later episode.
P: Thirdly, obviously someone with some talent made the costumes here.
M: Obvious the talent was in cake decorating.
H: I agree that the costuming was pretty awesome. We’ll see them better in other episodes.
K: Reminds me of the Menoptra from the Web Planet.
P: I also thought it was interesting that the Doctor knew how to relate to this person he’d never met. And this lead up to it was well done.
K: I disagree. It came out of nowhere. He acted like he knew him already. Signing the note implied that Zaroff had met him before, yet later that didn’t seem to be the case. Yet Zaroff called him “Doctor” not Dr. W.
M: The Doctor knew enough about Zaroff to know that he wouldn’t be able to resist the bait of the note.
H: If we’ve learning nothing else about this Doctor so far, it’s that we’ve learned that he knows how to manipulate people. So, are we ready for final thoughts now?
Mg: I’m interested in the next episode.
H: Well cool. Hopefully we’ll see you next week.
JJB: A little dark and dreary.
P: You live in Seattle.
JJB: True enough.
H: Would you like to expand on that at all?
JJB: No.
M: Jamie… kilt… and everybody watching him climb up the cliff. The Doctor is watching him on the beach climbing up the cliff, and then Polly stopped climbing to watch him climb up the cliff. And Ben can’t stop talking about his kilt.
H: Well, Ben is a sailor.
Sc: I have nothing.
R: What more needs be said, really.
E: I have to say I’m quite amused by Jamie’s initial reactions in the early part of the episode.
P: Okay, clearly I liked this episode. And I, as of yet, do not know what other people don’t. I think it’s starting out a great story. Obviously if they’re copying it for James Bond decades later, it’s a great story. Now, I don’t know if they copied Jules Verne. I like it. There’s nothing bad in this episode at all.
Mg: That’s a bold statement.
JJB: I disagree.
R: Okay, first of all, slow motion shark trap.
JJB: Yeah!
E: Seriously!
R: If only we could find some way to roll off of the slab. Second of all, FISH ON A STICK.
P: Which was awesome.
R: Your definition of awesome seems to be slight in variance of mine.
H: On the other hand, the actually ritual mask was pretty cool.
R: Thirdly, the depth gauge in the ancient Atlantian elevator.
H: In all seriousness, that could have been explained by Zaroff.
R: Alright, I will concede that one. They used up their entire mascara budget for the season.
H: Now we’re getting into Barbara hair territory.
R: Several of those people were looking like raccoon fish. Including Dr. Zaroff’s assistant Riff Raff. Don’t tell me nobody else was thinking that.
M: He was no Mavic Chen.
R: I’m not saying I didn’t enjoy the episode. I’m just saying Shakespeare it’s not.
P: Yes, it’s called Scifi.
M: I’ve always enjoyed Doctor Who, even the stinker episodes.
R: Gosh, the Silurians don’t look anything like I remembered them.
H: Ahhh…. sure. Anything else?
R: Nope, that’s it.
K: Cliffhanger 10 minutes before the actually cliffhanger.
R: It confused me too, I have to say. It was like “Wow, that’s a short episode.” Jumping the shark!
H: They weren’t jumping the shark.
R: Trundling the shark.
H: Sliding slowly towards the shark.
K: I was so confused. First they’re being sacrificed, but I don’t know why. Then they’re being turned info miners (how?) and fish people. How are there mines under the sea and they don’t drown? Why aren’t the miners fish people too?
Sc: They pressurize the mine with air.
K: Anyway my point is, why didn’t they just finish the sacrifice again?
H: You’re almost implying there’s a plot point in a future episode.
P: So there’s some sort of science verses religion theme there?
H: Could be, could be.
M: Smells fishy to me.
<groans>
H: There’s no two ways about it, until I see more of the footage so I can also do this wonderful reassessment that people are talking about, this is a goofy story. You just have to sit back an enjoy the goofiness. Although I think the cliffhanger of this episode was really, really creepy.
K: The real cliffhanger, anyway.
R: I can see why the Australian censors culled that one.
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